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Talk:Race the Vale
So let's talk... It's turning into an edit war, so let's discuss this. My issue is the lack of solid evidence to support the theory (since Christy is kissable before it, and usually races have hot women/girls signal the start). That, and the last sentence makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Hua Xiong 18:22, June 7, 2011 (UTC) : I know, but judging by most unusual facts from the game, the theory is possible. First, Christy is a Non-clique student, there is no way Jimmy can kiss her outside mission because he won't reach 100% faction respect with this clique. This means Christy was originally supposed to kiss Jimmy during a mission, and Race the Vale was probably planned for that. : You are right, Lola was present at the race too, but she is from Greasers clique, while Race the Vale is a Chapter 2 mission when Jimmy is still dealing with the Preps. Not to mention she frequently dates the Preps so they would spend money on her, so it is still possible that she was there for the Preps, not Jimmy. : Following the storyline, Lola triggers the bike race with Johnny and Jimmy and kisses Jimmy at the end. So it not impossible that Christy also does the same thing for Race the Vale. These are the only two bike race missions in the game anyway. RonBWL 08:22, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :: First, Christy is a Non-clique student, there is no way Jimmy can kiss her outside mission because he won't reach 100% faction respect with this clique. This means Christy was originally supposed to kiss Jimmy during a mission, and Race the Vale was probably planned for that.—Hang on. What? How is there 'no way Jimmy can kiss' Christy? The only reason you can't kiss Angie before the scripted kiss after Art 1 is that you haven't unlocked the ability to kiss people yet—not because your faction respect with her isn't high enough. They could've had you kiss Beatrice or Lola instead and it still would have unlocked the ability to kiss the non-clique girls. I imagine the only reason they chose Angie is because she's one of the only girls who doesn't play a part in the storyline by being one of the clique girls that Jimmy has to win over. Stating that any of this 'means' that Christy was supposed to do anything is incredibly presumptuous. It's your opinion, not fact. omgneroli! 11:28, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::: That's what you said - they could have. But faction respect is required - because with other cliques, Jimmy is unable to kiss clique girl and boy if he doesn't reach 60% respect with that clique, no matter if he completed Art class or not. Non-clique students react with Jimmy based on whether the other cliques hate or like Jimmy, so how could he still be able to kiss the three girls (Angie, Eunice AND Chirsty) when all other students hate him already? Doesn't it mean Christy is supposed to kiss Jimmy at some point so she won't hate him at the half end of Chapter 5? ::: The reason I stated that trivia for this mission has been explained above - this is one of the few points Christy is seen during missions and she plays a role similarily to Lola during Lola's Race. So that's why I think she was originally be given a role during this mission. RonBWL 12:12, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::: But faction respect is not required to kiss either Eunice or Angie in the first place (and, by extension, Christy). The non-clique students' respect might be dependent upon an average of the other cliques' respect, but that doesn't mean the non-clique students have to function as a clique. The very fact that they don't have a respect quotient of their own (rather having their treatment of Jimmy dependent upon the other cliques) suggests they don't function as one in their own right. You don't have to kiss Christy to make her not hate you in chapter 5; if kissing a girl was the sole factor in ensuring she liked you then not kissing Christy prior to chapter 5 would render it impossible to kiss her during it because you wouldn't have triggered the necessary event to make her like you. :::: You're saying that Christy must have been scripted to be kissed in that mission because otherwise how is she kissable when everyone else hates you, yet the fact of the matter is that she is kissable when everyone hates you, without you ever having kissed her. To use the fact that she's the only girl who's never kissed in the storyline as evidence that she should have been kissed during a mission just... It's not a solid argument. It's not based in evidence of any sort, and it's all incredibly speculative. omgneroli! 12:01, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::::: Did I ever say that she "must have been"? It is a theory, and it goes to Trivia section, and I already explained the reason why I posted that theory. What kind of solid evidence you want, deleted audio or leftover script? ::::: Bully's game mechanic is quite straight forward, and at one point it suddenly turned in an unusual way - "Yet the fact of the matter is that she is kissable when everyone hates you, without you ever having kissed her". Don't you see it's strange? ::::: I know that Trivia section isn't for speculative opinion, so I had to explain about the theory already. RonBWL 12:12, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::::: You said 'this means Christy was originally supposed to kiss Jimmy during a mission'. 'This means Christy was originally supposed to'. Do you see where the 'must have' comes into play? You jump in with a solid 'this is what was supposed to happen' and then act as though you only ever claimed to be providing a theory. It seemed less like you were arguing for the inclusion of such trivia in the article and more for the fact that you're 100% convinced Christy was supposed to be kissed during that mission. :::::: I don't think it's strange that you can kiss Christy without being scripted to do so. I think it'd be strange if the game made it possible to kiss the other two non-clique girls in chapter 1 but only opened up Christy in chapter 2. And what about the fact that it's possible to never kiss Angie in the process of completing the storyline, simply by eschewing Art class? If Christy were scripted to be kissed during a mission, that'd make Angie the only girl not kissed in the storyline. Wouldn't that be strange, too? :::::: As for evidence, yes, leftover unused audio would be definitive evidence to back up your point. As it stands, the best argument anyone can provide to refute the speculative evidence you've already given ('there is no way Jimmy can kiss her outside mission because he won't reach 100% faction respect with this clique') is the fact that you can kiss Christy 'outside' of Race the Vale, never mind the fact that this in itself is evidence to back up the fact that Christy might not have been scripted for a kiss in this mission. :::::: Really, the only way I think anyone could prove or disprove it at this point (due to the fact that Christy's audio files, at least, do not contain any mission dialogue to suggest she was ever scripted to kiss Jimmy) would be for someone to work their hacking magic on the game and see if there's any way to check Christy's respect level for Jimmy prior to and following Race the Vale. If there's an actual, tangible figure in the game mechanics that shows that Christy's respect for Jimmy jumps to 100% after the mission, then that'd be proof enough. omgneroli! 12:51, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::::::: omgneroli: You should see the very beginning of the game. Almost all non-cliques are hostile towards you. And yet, after you pass art, they'll accept gifts. If that's not proof that non-clique students function differently than clique students (and thus makes the trivia a complete stretch), then I guess it's as you said: one would have to find the files that determine the faction respect towards the player after each mission. Hua Xiong 12:59, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::::::: @to omgneroli: I meant the trivia itself - I did write "It is possible", so it is a theory. The reason has been explained. For the respect level mechanic you said, it already prove that the theory I wrote is possible - NPC respect toward Jimmy dynamically change throughout the game depends on the story and what he is wearing. Excluding Jimmy's appearance, every kissable girls is friendly to him if - 1: He already kissed her in mission / scripted action or 2-His faction standing with her clique is above 60% (Which makes Beatrice and Lola kissable before they "like" Jimmy). Neither condition applies for Christy - why she is still kissable after Art 1 is finished? That makes the theory belivable - she was supposed to kiss Jimmy at one point. ::::::::: ...she's only kissable after Art 1. ::::::::: ::::::::: I'm sorry if I'm misinterpreting what you've said but your writing isn't very coherent—how does the respect level mechanic prove your theory? According to the respect page, after someone has been kissed they remain at 100% respect no matter how their clique feels toward Jimmy, which is precisely why I suggested that inspecting Christy's respect toward Jimmy after Race the Vale is the only definitive way of proving this. If it's below 100% before Race the Vale and at 100% afterwards, that implies she was programmed to like him after the mission the way she would if she had kissed him. Give me this evidence and I'll quite happily let you edit it into the article as fact. ::::::::: You're treating Christy as if she were a clique member when for all we know, if none of the non-clique girls had scripted kisses they might still have been kissable during chapter 5. Why did Rockstar make Angie the girl Jimmy kisses after Art 1? Why not Christy? Why not Eunice? We don't know. What sets the non-clique students apart is not that they're a clique; it's that they don't belong to any of the cliques and consequently have rather different mechanics to the characters who do. My theory'' is that even if Angie hadn't been the one kissed at that point and Rockstar had chosen Eunice instead, she would still have been kissable throughout the game. ::::::::: You can't base an argument to support Christy having a scripted kiss on the fact that all girls are friendly to Jimmy after kissing him, while Christy is friendly to him when the non-kissable students aren't. She's friendly after Race the Vale, she's friendly ''before Race the Vale. She's always friendly, except apparently before Art 1 as Hua Xiong mentioned. Your reasoning is too speculative and it ignores the fact that perhaps non-clique girls were always planned to be more susceptible to seduction simply because they don't have clique loyalties preventing them from respecting Jimmy. The non-clique students are outcasts, after all. ::::::::: Obviously you're never going to be convinced, and I don't think Hua Xiong or myself will back down until someone provides some real evidence in your favour. Why can't we just leave things the way they are for the time being? The possibility that Christy was supposed to be kissed at the end of Race the Vale is already mentioned on her article, and whether the trivia has any basis in reality or not, it's better suited to her page, anyway. It has very little to do with the mission itself. omgneroli! 14:43, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::::::::: Ok then - remove it from the mission's trivia. I'm still digging through the Trigger.img but there are too many dat files inside, so I still didn't find the one controlling faction respect. I'll check it back later. Okay, what is this all about? Dan the Man 1983 18:06, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :Okay looked at the article's history and are you guys are debating about this edit? :"It is possible that Christy was supposed to kiss Jimmy after he won the race, because she appears at the starting line from the start. Jimmy kisses all other girls during missions and since Christy is a Non-Clique Students, Jimmy wouldn't be able to kiss her with good faction respect." :It should stay out. It is very speculative and there is no reference to support that. We can speculate on many things during the game, such as Troy chasing Pedro during the very first mission. It happens. It is the same reason why Christy was at the race, it happens, plus she is a gossiper and must of heard a rumour about a race going on. Anyways it stays out of the article, end of debate. Dan the Man 1983 18:10, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ::We've already reached a conclusion in that it should stay out for now until Ron can actually crack the trigger file to see if her respect changes after the mission. :: ::But now that you quoted it, my biggest issue was the last sentence. It just makes no logical sense whatsoever. Hua Xiong 19:25, June 8, 2011 (UTC)